9 Comments

  1. Patrick

    You say that angels are not affected by fire (Ezekiel 10:7), and yet they are condemned to fire as a punishment. In what way would that be a punishment if they are not affected by it?

    God can make a fire that affects material things without annihilating them – He had a fire that burned a bush that didn’t annihilate the bush.

    God can make a fire that does affect spirits (humans and angels), and a fire that burns flesh without annihilating them. This would be a fearful place indeed, and the warnings to cut off your hand and gouge out your eye to avoid it would make complete sense. I would never have that kind of a fear of a judgment that is like putting a bullet in your head where it’s just done and over.

    • Dirk Waren

      I didn’t write this particular article except for the long quoted part. But to address your points…

      You say that angels are not affected by fire (Ezekiel 10:7), and yet they are condemned to fire as a punishment. In what way would that be a punishment if they are not affected by it?

      Actually, the article never says that angels are not affected by fire, but rather that “fire does not affect angelic beings like humans.” Fire in the natural burns to ashes human beings (e.g. 2 Peter 2:6), but since angelic beings “cannot die,” as Christ pointed out (Luke 20:34-36), the lake of fire will have a different effect on the fallen angels captive there. The text (Revelation 20:10) plainly states that “They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever” and the article expounds upon this.

      As far as the burning bush goes (Exodus 3:2-3), the fire was supernatural and it was via this flame that the LORD appeared to Moses. By contrast, the weeds in Christ’s parable from Matthew 13:24-30 and 13:40-43 are symbolic of unsaved people condemned to the lake of fire to suffer the “second death” (Revelation 20:11-15) wherein “raging fire will consume the enemies of God” (Hebrews 10:26-27). As Jesus said in Matthew 10:28: “be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna: the lake of fire).”

      I would never have that kind of a fear of a judgment that is like putting a bullet in your head where it’s just done and over.

      This problematic argument is addressed elsewhere on this site here.

      The root issue here is what you believe to be the wages of human sin; that is, the ultimate consequences of rebellion against God. According to your theology the wages of sin is eternal life in roasting torment whereas God’s Word plainly says that “the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

      These are the two polar opposites available to human beings: eternal life or death, not eternal life in heavenly bliss and eternal life in burning conscious torment. This explains something God stressed: “For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!” (Ezekiel 18:31). What we all have to grasp is that immortality and eternal life are only available through the awesome gospel of Christ (2 Timothy 1:10).

      I encourage you to read HELL KNOW, which goes over all the details of human damnation and related issues. Here’s the CONTENTS PAGE, which provides access to every chapter, and here’s Chapter One.

      God Bless You and Your Service for the LORD, Patrick.

      PS: You can write me at dawaren@msn.com for further dialoguing. Thanks, brother.

  2. Samual Yoder

    Makes sense to me. If God can create he can destroy said creation, I don’t see it that angels can not be destroyed the same as humans. God can do whatever he wants he is not limited in any way, including destroying Satan and those angels that rebelled with him, after all it just says the Satanic trinity were cast into the lake of fire it says nothing about the fallen angels being tormented forever so I take it God destroyed them but the punishment of Satan, the beast & the false prophet were different then humans and fallen angels.

    • Dirk Waren

      Thanks for the feedback, Samual.

      Christ said that angels “cannot die” and therefore they possess intrinsic immortality (Luke 20:34-36). Thus the lake of fire is the “eternal fire” “prepared for the devil and his angels” as their eternal habitation (Matthew 25:41,46). The LORD did not want this tragedy to happen to fallen humanity so he banished Adam & Eve from the Garden of Eden after their fall so that they wouldn’t be able to “take also from the tree of life and live forever” in a fallen state, like the devil & his filthy minions (Genesis 3:22-24). Only those redeemed through Christ will have the right to eat of the tree of life and live forever (Revelation 2:7 & 22:14).

      Unredeemed people who are condemned of God on Judgment Day are cast into the lake of fire for the purpose of destruction and eradication (Revelation 20:11-15 & Matthew 10:28). Unlike the devil & his loser angels they’re not immortal; eternal life and immortality are only available to people via the gospel of Christ (2 Timothy 1:10). As Jesus said, unredeemed people will be like weeds cast into fire and burned up (Matthew 13:40). What happens to weeds thrown into fire? They BURN UP.

    • Dirk Waren

      The flame in that bush was decidedly supernatural through which the LORD appeared to Moses in the flame.

      By contrast, in Christ’s parable from Matthew 13:24-30 and 13:40-43 the weeds are symbolic of unsaved people condemned to the lake of fire to suffer the “second death” (Revelation 20:11-15) wherein “raging fire that will consume the enemies of God” (Hebrews 10:26-27). This is why the Lord elsewhere said to “be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna: the lake of fire)” in Matthew 10:28.

      This corresponds to another parable Jesus gave in Luke 19:11-27 wherein he likened unbelievers who hate him and reject his Lordship to enemies of a king. This was his conclusion “As for those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them — bring them here and KILL THEM in front of me” (verse 27).

      This in turn corresponds to something sobering James emphasized: “There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and DESTROY” (James 4:12).

  3. jim ott

    Thank you so much for providing all of this information. It is a great resource and very helpful.
    God bless you!

  4. Grace Receiver

    What you have stated here is so incredibly clear and concise. Straight from the Scriptures, yet people continue to try and refute it.
    Can you please explain Ezekiel 28:18 in light of the understanding that the fate of the devil is different than the fate of unsaved humans? This verse seems to say that Satan’s final state will be ashes, just like man’s.

  5. I think this is a great variation of conditional immortality interpretation for Revelation 20:10. I have been on board after reading Fudge (and Froom’s work) but never liked the exegesis of Rev. 20:10. Relegating it to the devil and his demons draws a needed distinction between humans and fallen angels. I wonder if other conditionalists will follow suit or if they will still keep clinging to the “well, this is apocalyptic imagery you see so tormented forever and ever is just symbolic of destruction.” Our exegesis must fit the text not be forced upon it. Great work. I’ve already linked your site to a new series of blogs I’m working on.

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